Share your success stories in using RTP here. Please do NOT include student identifiers.
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I had a student that was always late leaving the library in the morning so she was late getting to her 1st hour. I had her write a plan before she could come back to the library. She had to go to RTC on her lunch break. When she returned a few days later she had a good plan. We tweeked it a little and she hasn’t been late leaving since!
How is RTP working school-wide? Are our suspensions going down? The suspension reports are looking like kids are getting suspended for things that should be resolved in RTP.
I think Brenda is right to a degree. The difficulty is RTP–like other systemic initiatives–seems to take some time to permeate into the system. Hopefully, as everyone becomes more proficient in using RTP, we will see more and more change, e.g., suspension reports reflect refusals to follow process as opposed to days home as punishment.
It seems that RTP is meant for developmentally deprived students.
For a normal functioning student that likes to test the rules, RTP seems ridiculous. Why do they have to ask me what I’m doing when they saw what I was doing, seems like a fair enough question.
And the RTP process is NOT used consistently, nor is it embraced by all teachers. Students know when adults are treating them as if they are NOT intelligent beings.
I do NOT see this program as one that would be approved by any middle/upper class white school.
If you say this is untrue, please prove me wrong and cite the school and location and demographics!
1. So that we may discuss your first issue about how people think, act, and emote and use common definitions, are you willing to read about Perceptual Control Theory? On Ed Ford’s website, there is an explanation.
2. You are right: we are not at capacity here at MHS as far as staff usage. We are actively coaching, discussing, and demonstrating RTP, so all staff will be quality practitioners of RTP and not just the “oh, yeah, I use it–sort of” users. Systemic change is tough because people are being asked and expected to change some paradigms, e.g., from Skinner to Percetual Control Theory from reward and punishment to responsible thinking.
3. Two schools come to mind: Northview Public in Grand Rapids is a school that uses a non-authorized version of RTP. Evart, a rural school, also uses RTP. If you are interested in their demographic data, Northview publishes most of it on their website. Truthfully, I have not checked Evart’s website.
I think that those you feel that RTP is a Disaster,they are only mad that they have to go.I believe that the only reason this process was made was to keep kids out of getting suspended, it gives students the fari chance to lokk at what they are doing and come up with a solution to change the way that they are acting. Any student should see that this RTP is a way to redeem them before they go home for good.
If many of the students who are sent to RTC are acting out because of confusion or frustration, what is the point of making those students miss out on class time? It seems the worse possible thing for the student that may actually need extra assistance in class!
At least with detention, the students are retained on their own time, they do not use class time, making the teacher prepare missing work from the time when they were in RTC. It further allows the student to make extremely poor use of instructional time. When the student returns to class they will be more frustrated and confused and will be more likely to act out again. The student will also enjoy testing just how far they can push a teacher before he or she will send them out of his class.
It would be better if students could be sent to detention at a time that does not interfere with both teaching and learning.
RTP has a great philosophy behind it, as do most programs, but the application of such a program seems best reserved for students who are basically lost causes. This program may well serve those youth serving time in a juvenile facility or boot camp, places for those individuals deemed socially incorrigible. This is not a program compatible with teaching and learning!
Having worked in a juvenile detention center before, I would agree this would be a good program for young people who are incarcerated. Learning how to make choices and then living with the consequences of your choices is a valuable lesson in life. Remember, your choices might not be someone else’s choice though.
Hmm. Starting to sound like making choices and living with the consequences might be a good thing for others, also.
Having a disruptive student leave a classroom, does interupt that student’s instructional time. However, that student wasn’t learning if they were disrupting. Besides, there are 29 other students in the classroom that need to learn. The disruptive student obviously needed something else. During negotiations, the teacher can find out what that might have been. The negotiations are on the students’ time.
Using RTP has changed the atmosphere of our school. More and more teachers are talking about the pleasant and less tense atmosphere. That atmosphere seems to be helping my students relax. It’s not an advisorial game between teachers and students for discipline to take place if everyone is being shown respect.
Confused and frustrated students who then become disruptive do not become less confused, frustrated, and disruptive when they are given detention from my experience. If you say they do from your experience, I believe you. From mine, though, the student who becomes disruptive tends to draw time away from instruction unless of course the teacher stops the class to work with the student. In some cases, this may work. More often than not it seem that the student’s disorganized thinking is unlikely to unravel in, say, ten or twenty minutes. Some students may connect the dots between detention (negative consequence) and their behavior thus creating a behavior reinforcement schedule with a good grade or some other kudo from the teacher (positive reinforcement). The more I experience teens, however, the more I am convinced that Skinnerian psychology is only as good as the ability to “up the ante” on punishment and reward. When a student meets with a teacher, the negotiation period–ideally–will be a time to both work through confusion and frustration, commit to a “future” plan, and figure out how to make up what was missed.
I think most systems for student discipline are designed to work with what you might term “lost causes.” Rarely have I seen a discipline program that tauts its efficacy with honors students; generally, they deal with the students who struggle mightily to fit into the “mold” of the school. Furthermore, teaching people to think for themselves and to think responsibly are worthy goals; many students with whom I attended college could have benefited from some experience with RTP.
As far as psychology textbooks are concerned, you are probably aware that today’s therapeutic practices may not be in yesterday’s textbook. Skinner and Freud seem to be mentioned in most as historical cro-magnon modalities when compared to Aaron Beck (CBT) or solution-based therapy. Interestingly, and as an aside, I am interested in the similarities between CBT and PCT. Furthermore, Carl Rogers’ belief that the therapuetic encounter was therapeutic in and of itself is fascinating when one considers the purpose of the RTP questions.
True enough: anyone can create a website. Check out William Powers’ book; if I remember correctly, you may purchase it from Ed Ford’s website. Finally, you are right again: if teachers do not buy into RTP, they will not use it. Therein lies the Achilles heal of systemic change. As members of an organization who want quality process for all kids, we have to coach, lead by example, train, provide support, and coach some more. Whether you prefer Collins or Deming, creating a true shared philosophy within any system is a tough, tough enterprise.
This week I asked students who were at our school last year how they liked the Responsible Thinking classroom vs. the ISS room. All agreed that RTC was much better. One student commented that last year when people went to ISS they usually got suspended. With RTP, you go to the Responsible Thinking classroom to think about what you were doing wrong and write a plan to use the next time.
RTP is a process–not a means to an end. It’s like any other staple of life learning. You don’t stop you just get better at it. I find my classroom is much better managed with the on-set of RTP. Let’s keep up the team effort to work on a difficult systemic and paradigm change.
Hey!Every other blog I have read about A Time For Negotiation, has been lacking in information. Your insight into A Time For Negotiation is sooooo much better than anything else I have read. Thanks Amanda.
For the naysayers out there all I have to say is that since RTP has entered our Middle School, discipline has gone down and grades and test scores have gone up. The building has an air of respect between not only students/teachers, but teachers/teachers.
Every generation seems to get worse and worse as far as people taking responsibility of their own actions. At our school, we are hoping to break that cycle with RTP, and it seems to be working. We will be implementing it in our lower grades in the coming years.
I couldn’t understand some parts of this article RTP Success Stories, but I guess I just need to check some more resources regarding this, because it sounds interesting.
Mr. Ford himself will be appearing at a conference hosted by our school in August, 2008. If you are interested in learning more and are in the area, check out www.responsiblethinking.com for more info.
I read similar article also named RTP Success Stories, and it was completely different. Personally, I agree with you more, because this article makes a little bit more sense for me
November 8th, 2007 at 7:30 am
A student with anger issues was “unable” to get mad because the questions “diffused” him.
November 9th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
I had a student that was always late leaving the library in the morning so she was late getting to her 1st hour. I had her write a plan before she could come back to the library. She had to go to RTC on her lunch break. When she returned a few days later she had a good plan. We tweeked it a little and she hasn’t been late leaving since!
November 15th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
How is RTP working school-wide? Are our suspensions going down? The suspension reports are looking like kids are getting suspended for things that should be resolved in RTP.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
I think Brenda is right to a degree. The difficulty is RTP–like other systemic initiatives–seems to take some time to permeate into the system. Hopefully, as everyone becomes more proficient in using RTP, we will see more and more change, e.g., suspension reports reflect refusals to follow process as opposed to days home as punishment.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
YOU R ALL SILLy for using this process and who ever cam up with it is crazy
November 30th, 2007 at 7:16 am
What would you propose for understanding human nature and then helping people to become responsible thinkers?
November 30th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
It seems that RTP is meant for developmentally deprived students.
For a normal functioning student that likes to test the rules, RTP seems ridiculous. Why do they have to ask me what I’m doing when they saw what I was doing, seems like a fair enough question.
And the RTP process is NOT used consistently, nor is it embraced by all teachers. Students know when adults are treating them as if they are NOT intelligent beings.
I do NOT see this program as one that would be approved by any middle/upper class white school.
If you say this is untrue, please prove me wrong and cite the school and location and demographics!
December 3rd, 2007 at 7:19 am
1. So that we may discuss your first issue about how people think, act, and emote and use common definitions, are you willing to read about Perceptual Control Theory? On Ed Ford’s website, there is an explanation.
2. You are right: we are not at capacity here at MHS as far as staff usage. We are actively coaching, discussing, and demonstrating RTP, so all staff will be quality practitioners of RTP and not just the “oh, yeah, I use it–sort of” users. Systemic change is tough because people are being asked and expected to change some paradigms, e.g., from Skinner to Percetual Control Theory from reward and punishment to responsible thinking.
3. Two schools come to mind: Northview Public in Grand Rapids is a school that uses a non-authorized version of RTP. Evart, a rural school, also uses RTP. If you are interested in their demographic data, Northview publishes most of it on their website. Truthfully, I have not checked Evart’s website.
December 3rd, 2007 at 10:23 am
I kno some of my peers dont lik3 the RTP process but i think that its a good idea
December 7th, 2007 at 10:00 am
I think that those you feel that RTP is a Disaster,they are only mad that they have to go.I believe that the only reason this process was made was to keep kids out of getting suspended, it gives students the fari chance to lokk at what they are doing and come up with a solution to change the way that they are acting. Any student should see that this RTP is a way to redeem them before they go home for good.
December 9th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
If many of the students who are sent to RTC are acting out because of confusion or frustration, what is the point of making those students miss out on class time? It seems the worse possible thing for the student that may actually need extra assistance in class!
At least with detention, the students are retained on their own time, they do not use class time, making the teacher prepare missing work from the time when they were in RTC. It further allows the student to make extremely poor use of instructional time. When the student returns to class they will be more frustrated and confused and will be more likely to act out again. The student will also enjoy testing just how far they can push a teacher before he or she will send them out of his class.
It would be better if students could be sent to detention at a time that does not interfere with both teaching and learning.
RTP has a great philosophy behind it, as do most programs, but the application of such a program seems best reserved for students who are basically lost causes. This program may well serve those youth serving time in a juvenile facility or boot camp, places for those individuals deemed socially incorrigible. This is not a program compatible with teaching and learning!
RTP: Really Terrifying Program
December 9th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
Just how many reputable psychology text books endorse or even mention Ed Ford and his work with perceptual control theory and RTP, RTC?
Is there even one?
Northview seems to have a flimsy understanding of RTP at best.
You are not going to get cooperation from teachers who don’t believe that RTP is a good thing.
December 9th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Any quack can make a website!
December 9th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
That is, what books NOT written by Ed Ford himself exist that take a critical look at perceptual control theory and RTP, RTC.
December 10th, 2007 at 7:42 am
Wizard2,
Having worked in a juvenile detention center before, I would agree this would be a good program for young people who are incarcerated. Learning how to make choices and then living with the consequences of your choices is a valuable lesson in life. Remember, your choices might not be someone else’s choice though.
Hmm. Starting to sound like making choices and living with the consequences might be a good thing for others, also.
Having a disruptive student leave a classroom, does interupt that student’s instructional time. However, that student wasn’t learning if they were disrupting. Besides, there are 29 other students in the classroom that need to learn. The disruptive student obviously needed something else. During negotiations, the teacher can find out what that might have been. The negotiations are on the students’ time.
Using RTP has changed the atmosphere of our school. More and more teachers are talking about the pleasant and less tense atmosphere. That atmosphere seems to be helping my students relax. It’s not an advisorial game between teachers and students for discipline to take place if everyone is being shown respect.
December 11th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Dear Wizard2,
Confused and frustrated students who then become disruptive do not become less confused, frustrated, and disruptive when they are given detention from my experience. If you say they do from your experience, I believe you. From mine, though, the student who becomes disruptive tends to draw time away from instruction unless of course the teacher stops the class to work with the student. In some cases, this may work. More often than not it seem that the student’s disorganized thinking is unlikely to unravel in, say, ten or twenty minutes. Some students may connect the dots between detention (negative consequence) and their behavior thus creating a behavior reinforcement schedule with a good grade or some other kudo from the teacher (positive reinforcement). The more I experience teens, however, the more I am convinced that Skinnerian psychology is only as good as the ability to “up the ante” on punishment and reward. When a student meets with a teacher, the negotiation period–ideally–will be a time to both work through confusion and frustration, commit to a “future” plan, and figure out how to make up what was missed.
I think most systems for student discipline are designed to work with what you might term “lost causes.” Rarely have I seen a discipline program that tauts its efficacy with honors students; generally, they deal with the students who struggle mightily to fit into the “mold” of the school. Furthermore, teaching people to think for themselves and to think responsibly are worthy goals; many students with whom I attended college could have benefited from some experience with RTP.
As far as psychology textbooks are concerned, you are probably aware that today’s therapeutic practices may not be in yesterday’s textbook. Skinner and Freud seem to be mentioned in most as historical cro-magnon modalities when compared to Aaron Beck (CBT) or solution-based therapy. Interestingly, and as an aside, I am interested in the similarities between CBT and PCT. Furthermore, Carl Rogers’ belief that the therapuetic encounter was therapeutic in and of itself is fascinating when one considers the purpose of the RTP questions.
True enough: anyone can create a website. Check out William Powers’ book; if I remember correctly, you may purchase it from Ed Ford’s website. Finally, you are right again: if teachers do not buy into RTP, they will not use it. Therein lies the Achilles heal of systemic change. As members of an organization who want quality process for all kids, we have to coach, lead by example, train, provide support, and coach some more. Whether you prefer Collins or Deming, creating a true shared philosophy within any system is a tough, tough enterprise.
Yours,
Paul
January 8th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
This week I asked students who were at our school last year how they liked the Responsible Thinking classroom vs. the ISS room. All agreed that RTC was much better. One student commented that last year when people went to ISS they usually got suspended. With RTP, you go to the Responsible Thinking classroom to think about what you were doing wrong and write a plan to use the next time.
February 6th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
i think this is a waste of time and Mr. Kurdziel you be on dis too much.
February 19th, 2008 at 7:23 am
RTP is a process–not a means to an end. It’s like any other staple of life learning. You don’t stop you just get better at it. I find my classroom is much better managed with the on-set of RTP. Let’s keep up the team effort to work on a difficult systemic and paradigm change.
March 26th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Hey!Every other blog I have read about A Time For Negotiation, has been lacking in information. Your insight into A Time For Negotiation is sooooo much better than anything else I have read. Thanks Amanda.
May 1st, 2008 at 12:58 pm
For the naysayers out there all I have to say is that since RTP has entered our Middle School, discipline has gone down and grades and test scores have gone up. The building has an air of respect between not only students/teachers, but teachers/teachers.
Every generation seems to get worse and worse as far as people taking responsibility of their own actions. At our school, we are hoping to break that cycle with RTP, and it seems to be working. We will be implementing it in our lower grades in the coming years.
May 6th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
I couldn’t understand some parts of this article RTP Success Stories, but I guess I just need to check some more resources regarding this, because it sounds interesting.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Mr. Ford himself will be appearing at a conference hosted by our school in August, 2008. If you are interested in learning more and are in the area, check out www.responsiblethinking.com for more info.
May 13th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Hello my friends
May 28th, 2008 at 9:28 am
I read similar article also named RTP Success Stories, and it was completely different. Personally, I agree with you more, because this article makes a little bit more sense for me
September 11th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Cool blog.
Thanks, webmaster.